UbuntuWiki:UDSF/talk

{{#ifexist: :UbuntuWiki:UDSF/talk/zh | | {{#ifexist: UbuntuWiki:UDSF/talk/zh | | {{#ifeq: {{#titleparts:UbuntuWiki:UDSF/talk|1|-1|}} | zh | | }} }} }} {{#ifeq: {{#titleparts:UbuntuWiki:UDSF/talk|1|-1|}} | zh | | }}

Comments on UbuntuWiki:UDSF

Documentation Team Commentary

MatthewEast (mdke)

I'll make some brief comments on the Storage Center. First of all, I don't think there is any reason to say that "Official Wiki and Doc team members saw [the storage center] as a threat". I haven't seen any evidence of this.

I think it is a shame to have two teams working on two wikis, with what are essentially similar (or broadly similar) purposes. Both sites collect documentation. The Storage Center is in part a reflection of problems with the Ubuntu wiki, but I really believe that efforts are best spent on trying to solve those problems, rather than creating a separate project.

In the past a number of forum contributors were put off contributing to the Ubuntu wiki because we ask that contributors follow certain guidelines (WikiGuide) before documents can be considered "ready" and are added to the index at UserDocumentation. We further ask that significant structural changes to the documentation are discussed on the ubuntu-doc mailing list. In general, communication (via the mailing list) is encouraged.

These barriers to entry have been consistently misunderstood by some people, which has led to the idea that the Ubuntu Wiki is closed to Forum members. This idea is of course not true, indeed, the DocumentationTeam is extremely keen to encourage contribution from forum members. I do not know why such misunderstandings arise, I have gradually become of the view that they are evidence of a more general problem of mistrust between the forums and the other parts of the Ubuntu community. This is a shame, because I see no reason at all for it, and whenever I have had the opportunity to discuss the situation with forum members, in general the misunderstandings have been quickly eliminated.

A number of initiatives were begun some time ago in an attempt to make contributing to the wiki easier:

a. Most important of these was Henrik's idea: the UbuntuWiki:forum page where forum users are encouraged to paste in material from the forum without having to worry about the quality of the documentation, or the pesky MoinMoin formatting. The idea is that material pasted there can then be incorporated into the main wiki.
a. I posted a guide on how to use the wiki in the howto section of the forum.

However these and other ideas have not taken off.

A number of distinctions between the sites have been raised on this page, its parent and the forum in general, but after hours and hours of discussion with the participants I am still convinced that the two sites fulfil essentially similar purposes. I don't think any of those distinctions are in fact enough to justify a separate project, but in the end, separate projects will arise and there is not a lot that can be done about it.

Other Comments

AndrewZajac

"Previous attempts at getting users to submit data to the Wiki itself was failing. Azz, and many others like him were pushing users to submit their data, and it wasnt happening."

No.  I was trying to get the forum staff to encourage people to contribute.  I Knew this was not a one-person job.  I failed to get the forum staff to collaborate for obvious reasons.  It had nothing to do with the wiki itself nor the wiki format.

"They werent submitting the data in the proper form."

The doc team set out guidelines.  Guidelines were not needed until content started to appear.  This is an issue for any documentation project.

I also feel that the forum staff have made every effort to encourage users to add their content to the Wiki, but this is not occurring for a number of reasons.

There was a plan to create a "wiki team" long before most of the current forum staff held staff positions. If that were to have been implemented, it could be said that every effort was made. It is not the case. I needed buy-in from the forum staff to implement the plan at the time. It never got to the point where users were involved because of the forum politics.

I really do not want to bash this (UDSF/GWOS) project. It may be a good thing for Ubuntu or it may not - That is for others to determine. I really don't want to get involved. It is just inacurate to claim that the official forum-wiki project was given a fair chance before this project was started.

Also, my questions about the relationship between this project and the forums were answered in this thread from the resolution forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=101287

Whether this is pertinent or not is not for me to say. I do not mean to pick sides by adding my thoughts here. I only mean to describe what happened .

JonathanJesse

I guess the question is how many wikis releated to Ubuntu do we need? When I am looking for help on a Ubuntu problem the first place I check are the written documentation, help.ubuntu.com, then I look on the Ubuntu Wiki, then on the help channel based on the version I am using, either #kubuntu or #ubuntu. If I still haven't found my answer I ask the mailing-lists followed by a google search to find the information. I have not ever looked up any documentation on the UDSF or heard any mention of this project in #kubuntu or #kubuntu-devel where I spend most of my time. I wonder is another site necessary when the wiki site needs so much love and attention.

JeromeGotangco

I like the idea of quick and easy howtos that are organized in a wiki structure. Also, In a nutshell, I like the USDF idea but balk at having it hosted elsewhere since we have too many wikis already. From a software POV, i guess mediawiki makes it easier for more USDF contributions compared to Moin, but this shouldn't be an impediment. It would be better to do all the stuff in the wiki and have it classified accordingly. Also, since stuff included in the USDF in collective form are from the posts of forum contributors, we have to make sure that the author of the said content is properly notified/has given consent/released it under an appropriate license.

Matthew5, aka matthew on the forums - totally non-biased, uninvolved observer

I am very adept at searching tech forums, googling, using this wiki and flitting all over the web to find whatever bit of info I need. I have contributed to this wiki, albeit very modestly, and I have referred people to specific pages here on a regular basis. My signature on the forums has links to both this wiki and the USDF. I've been around the internet since before the days of the world wide web when the easiest ways to find information were gopher and archie. I use irc and newsgroups. Mailing lists don't scare or intimidate me in the slightest. Most people reading this would find themselves in a similar situation, perhaps surpassing me significantly both in ability and resourcefulness.

The average person reading and participating in the forums is not described by the above paragraph at all. In fact, much of what I just wrote would sound like Star Trek technobabble to them. "So you need to figure out how to...? Well, first you just need to realign the output matrices using the matter/antimatter control valve contained here, near the dilithium chamber. If you have more questions, you can make a request on the Vulcan mailing list--don't worry, their logic is both clear and impeccable. If that doesn't do it for you, why not warp over to Deep Space irc and ask the Bajorans in #ubuntu or maybe search the Starfleet wiki database?"

We are trying to make Arthur Dent (sorry about mixing the metaphors here, but it's applicable) search and maybe contribute to a web resource that is closer in nature to an O'Reilly book than the Hitchiker's Guide to Ubuntu that he really needs--something that is easily accessible, searchable, clear and has a touch of whimsy. I think that's why some of the how-to authors from the forums don't contribute to the wiki--they're intimidated and feel grossly outclassed in knowledge, skill and capability. They are willing to put somthing up on a forum for discussion, see if others are able to use the info and get it to work. They are also willing to allow forum staff (like Team Bahamut) to collect their info (possibly modified) in a central location that is exceptionally easy to use, but they aren't going to try to add what they perceive of as their "silly little bit of useless knowledge" to the Encyclopedia Ubuntuka. With the (appropriate, I think) stringent guidelines for style and the learning curve necessary to post your first entry on this wiki most forum contributers are just going to say, "Yeah, the wiki's great, I just don't feel good enough to contribute there." But they are starting to feel welcome to contribute to the USDF simply because the forum staff, and specifically KingBahamut and his crew have made doing so incredibly simple. One private message: "May we use the info from your post and add it to the database? You don't have to do anything else." Quick reply: "Yes, I'm honored you would be interested."

Would I like to see only one source of information available that would be perfect for everyone, official in nature, flawless in its information, up to date everywhere with hundreds of people contributing? Umm...yeah. I would also like to win the lottery, have everyone love music with tons of loud, bluesy guitars, achieve world peace, and not see good TV shows cancelled before they even finish showing the first season. Since we are dealing with a world that is incredibly diverse in its needs, outlooks and desires I recommend we allow the humans using Ubuntu to make contributions where they can in the manner in which they are comfortable. I'm really okay with the Encyclopedia Britannica coexisting with wikipedia and sometimes I just want Webster's Dictionary (Abridged). In my opinion, the proliferation of Ubuntu documentation will not harm the distro nor the community but is likely to make those who have never felt a part of any community that is even remotely techy suddenly feel welcome and as if they are able to contribute.